Tradition Conflict and Past with Jean Donaldson

Watch or take heed to the recording of the panel at Bark! Fest, the guide competition for animal lovers, with Jean Donaldson speaking about The Tradition Conflict.

By Zazie Todd PhD

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Bark! Fest with Jean Donaldson

Bark! Fest, the guide competition for animal lovers, occurred in
September 2024 with 11 writer panels (and one methods class from the
wonderful Erica Beckwith of A Matter of Manners Canine Coaching). It was organized to rejoice the launch of my new guide, Bark! The Science of Serving to Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Canine, which is out now and accessible from all good bookstores.

That is the recording of the very first session, Tradition Conflict and Past with particular visitor Jean Donaldson.

You’ll be able to watch the recording on Youtube or under, and take heed to the recording wherever you get your podcasts (Apple) or under. Closed captions can be found on Youtube. It’s also possible to scroll right down to learn among the highlights of the dialogue.

We talked about:

• why Jean wrote her guide The Tradition Conflict
• what the Transparency Problem is and why it is so vital for canine trainers to reply these questions
• her recommendation to somebody who’s scuffling with their canine’s behaviour
• what’s distinctive in regards to the Academy for Canine Trainers
• a writing tip
• her favorite factor that is modified on the planet of canine coaching over time
• and he or she answered numerous questions from the viewers

Get the books

The entire Bark! Fest books can be found from good bookstores, together with from Bookshop (which helps impartial bookstores), UK Bookshop, and my Amazon retailer. 

Assets talked about

Transparency in canine coaching  

The Academy for Canine Trainers 

Discover a PPG skilled 

Karen Pryor Academy 

Victoria Stilwell Academy  

The Nice Programs Canine Coaching 101  

The last word canine coaching tip  (Companion Animal Psychology)

Emily Priestley Wild at Coronary heart Canine Coaching and her guide, City Sheepdog (see
additionally our latest podcast with Emily, What it’s essential learn about herding canines)

Cooperative Paws by Veronica Sanchez  

In case you like this, you may additionally wish to see the Bark! Fest recording of Canine, trauma, and each ends of the leash with Patricia McConnell PhD. 

Many because of everybody who got here to Bark! Fest and made it such an exquisite occasion, and particular because of Jean Donaldson for this stunning and vital dialogue.

Highlights of the dialog with Jean Donaldson

Z: So can we begin by going again to while you have been writing The Tradition Conflict? As a result of it is a guide that so many individuals have informed me that this guide modified their method to canine coaching. And plenty of trainers who used aversives have informed me that that is the guide that made them swap to utilizing reward primarily based strategies. However the world was very totally different while you have been scripting this guide.

So can you’re taking us again to that second and say what it was like? What was the backdrop and why did you write this guide?

J: We now have to return to 1992. There was a man, a distinguished coach I knew from the obedience trial circuit. He was quoted in {a magazine} and that is phrase for phrase, in case you use meals to coach, the canine is doing it for the meals and never for you.

Now I had been taking part in sports activities with my canines. I would been educating lessons, doing instances for a few years by that time. And it had turn into obvious to me that canines did not simply do stuff like a two minute heeling routine simply to please us. So I felt there was a fiction happening. And I knew this man and I knew how he educated. It was with a choke collar, and he was fairly relentless, and his canines have been fairly joyless.

I have to say that he believed his canines have been cranking out obedience patterns for him. It actually caught in my craw that meals would by some means corrupt the canine’s noble impulse to do these methods for this man’s pleasure. And that this form of invented platonic canine who wasn’t simply bonded to folks and did not simply love us, however who may very well be solely motivated by our happiness, was in truth being principally tortured by ache and strangulation gadgets to keep up this phantasm.

It nearly made me bodily sick. So quick ahead a couple of years and I wrote that guide as an try to tug the curtain again.

Ok: So, Jean, in the beginning of Tradition Conflict, which was… I simply. I do know this is not a part of our script, however I simply wished to say I used to be one of many individuals who, I felt like my thoughts was actually cranked open once I learn this guide. Not solely was it simply, like, such good info, and it made a lot sense to me as somebody who, , I used to be a social scientist.

And so I appreciated the truth that it made sense as a substitute of it simply being, , I had in all probability learn like 50 canine books by that time, and. And I used to be simply continually judging myself, like, why cannot I make my canines do what they are saying I ought to be capable of do in these books, proper? I used to be, like, confused and type of, like, down on myself. After which I learn this guide and I used to be identical to, oh, it was type of a, this massive reduction.

It is smart. It provides us a path ahead, , so it was a very vital guide for me too. 

So that you begin this guide, The Tradition Conflict, by speaking about this Disneyfication of canines. And do you assume that is nonetheless a difficulty right this moment?

J: I’d say a lot much less now. There are undoubtedly whiffs of it within the drive coaching crowd after they pour scorn on meals. So they may use phrases like dependence on the meals and so forth. All habits depends upon outcomes. And the stuff we would like canines to do is usually, as we regularly say in utilized habits, costly habits. There’s all the time motivation. The one distinction is how upfront we’re about it.

Z: Yep, positive. Okay. And so some time in the past, the Academy created the Transparency Problem, which was shared in all places, and it is calling on canine trainers to be extra clear about their strategies. So, as you simply stated, it depends upon altering habits. Will depend on one thing. So are you able to inform us about these questions that you simply arrange within the Transparency Problem and why they’re so vital?

J: The concept behind them is shopper safety. So the three questions are these:

• What’s going to occur to my canine when she will get it proper? 
• What’s going to occur to her when she will get it improper?
• Are there any much less invasive alternate options to what you plan? 

So that is our questions that the general public ought to pose to canine trainers. Mainly, it is about knowledgeable consent. In more moderen years, as coaching with out aversives has caught on, those that are depending on aversives are resorting to murkier and murkier language of their advertising supplies to hide what they’re really doing. So you will see weaselly phrases like pure or management or power and so forth. 

The questions are designed to get concrete about how the coach is planning to inspire your canine. What occasions within the bodily world are going to occur when the canine will get it improper, most particularly? And a few coach says, properly, there’s simply going to be management.

[Feline interlude]

Ok: Lack of transparency is an actual challenge for bizarre canine guardians. And I do know that was a part of the rationale why you got here up with the three query problem. So in addition to asking these three questions, what do you assume canine guardians ought to do to guard themselves from aversive strangers? As a result of they’re, such as you stated, I believe they’ve painted themselves right into a nook. They’re beginning to use different language. You recognize, so, so what can somebody do with out getting a Ph.D. primarily in, in how the canine skilled world is working?

J: Yeah. I’d say do not be cowed or bullied by these folks. If they are saying to you that your canine, quote unquote, needs to be corrected or that electrical shock does not really harm, or that it is only a faucet on the shoulder, run away. There are higher alternate options. 

In case your canine comes again from a board and practice or one thing worse than he was or now he’s afraid on prime of being worse, report that coach. Report them to no matter group they belong to. Write a overview. Inform others on social media it is not okay, it is malpractice, it is not your fault, it is the coach. And if it is actually egregious, I’d even say name a lawyer.

Z: Yeah, I believe that is good recommendation. And many individuals name in a canine coach exactly as a result of they’re scuffling with their canine’s habits. And a few habits points will be very tough for bizarre folks to take care of. So other than discovering a great coach, which as we all know is hard due to that murky language, what different recommendation do you may have for somebody who’s scuffling with their canine’s habits?

J: Know that our expertise now could be higher than it ever has been and so they need to attempt to discover a licensed non aversive habits practitioner. There is a referral listing on the Academy web site. There is a referral listing on the Pet Skilled Guild web site and in addition on the websites of non aversive colleges, issues like Karen Pryor Academy, Victoria Stilwell Academy. The coach’s web site ought to specify no aversives will probably be used. So phrases like drive free or no ache, no concern, and so forth. And ask these three questions and be sure that the solutions that you simply get are clear and concrete and comprehensible.

Ok: One factor we regularly hear at the moment is that there is this enhance in fearful and anxious canines. Now this I do not, so far as I do know, there hasn’t been an precise research on this, so it is arduous to quantify. However what’s your impression about numbers of fearful canines? You recognize, form of associated to the previous?

J: I do assume I’ve seen what you are describing and I do not know, such as you, there’s not been analysis to my data. My guess is that it is partly we’re doing a greater job of catching and diagnosing anxiousness issues and getting them applicable therapy. VBs are extra accessible. There are extra of them than ever earlier than. There may additionally be perhaps a little bit of a pendulum swing and a few over analysis happening. However once more, I really do not know.

Z: It is arduous to know, is not it? And that is one thing that I hear very often. However as a result of there is not a selected piece of analysis that like compares the previous to now, there is no strategy to inform for positive. Yeah. Thanks. It is good to get your impressions on that. 

And now I wish to ask you in regards to the Academy for Canine Trainers as a result of I am very, very fortunate to be a graduate of the Academy for Canine Trainers. Kristi is just too, and Kristi is now a employees member there as properly. I couldn’t have picked a greater faculty to go to. I am so very, very blissful that I went to the Academy and I realized a lot from being there.

However we’ve an enormous lot of your followers right here. So I am hoping that you would be able to simply say one thing in regards to the academy and about what’s distinctive in regards to the Academy is canine coaching curriculum.

J: I’d say it is a deeper dive into the whys about animal habits in addition to the way to work extra advanced instances. We additionally supervise the apply of our graduates. I coach my grads on instances on daily basis. So I suppose I’d say it is for potential trainers who’re actually interested in how habits works and who’re considering taking up more difficult work with canine guardians.

Z: Yeah, thanks. I’d say that.

Ok: Yeah. And I believe there is a power within the counseling modules too. You recognize, I am working with people. I imply, we work with people virtually completely. I do not know any canine trainers who do not work with folks. And one of many issues that studying all these books for Bark! Fest, Zazie, that is actually been hammered dwelling to me once I’m studying books by people who find themselves in our occupation, our skilled colleagues, is there’s much more consideration to folks.

I imply, there’s some, I believe, different nice issues and I hope Jean will speak about this a bit extra. Like there actually is much more form of bandwidth given to the truth that canines are canines and so they have wants and we should always permit them to satisfy their very own wants and be canines. But in addition there’s this, like, individuals are vital and so they’re not evil and we are able to love working with folks as canine trainers. So I believe that is a very cool a part of the Academy too.

Z: And if I can add a component too, I’d say additionally simply the neighborhood and the neighborhood that you’ve with different trainers and the prospect to go and get suggestions on one thing in case you want it, or simply to, , let off steam about one thing if it’s essential.

And simply the friendship amongst the folks, I believe is without doubt one of the greatest issues that you simply’re nonetheless a part of this neighborhood after you have graduated. You are not despatched off free into the world. You are still a part of it. Which I believe, , for me is unimaginable. So thanks, Jean.

J: Thanks.

Ok: So once I was taking a look at these questions yesterday and simply fascinated with what I actually wished to know, I simply, it occurred to me that issues have modified. You all the time say that issues have modified because you wrote this guide.

This guide, I believe, is mired in plenty of anger and you may really feel it and it feels so righteous and good. You recognize, in studying it. 

J: I have to say I’ve apologized for the tone on many events.

Ok: I imply, I’m right here for it. However I used to be questioning what out of every little thing that is modified because the time that you simply have been form of impressed to put in writing this guide, what is the favourite factor of yours that is modified?

J: I’ve to say it is the military of practitioners on the market doing the job competently with out aversives thriving of their careers. It was not all the time so. It’s nonetheless a struggle zone, philosophically for positive. There are these remaining type of pockets of people that depend upon shock and so forth. They’ll go down combating, however down they’re going. That is 2024. It is not 1992 or in 96 once I wrote the guide. It is not then anymore.

Z: Yeah, and I believe that applies to the tone too, as a result of it was wanted, completely wanted. And issues have modified so much since then. And as you say, the shock trainers are going to go down combating, however they’re undoubtedly individuals are going to should cease utilizing shock as a result of we all know a lot extra in regards to the dangers and a lot extra about the advantages as properly of reward primarily based coaching.

So I’m going to ask you a query which isn’t on our listing, however I wish to learn about your, your favourite factor. As a result of while you’re coaching with rewards, the canine is basically blissful about doing it. So what’s your favourite factor about utilizing optimistic reinforcement to coach a canine?

J: How the canine seems. You recognize, simply the way in which they give the impression of being when it is identical to this. I imply, I can simply do stuff and, and get, that is enjoyable. That is like the perfect factor ever.

It is simply how canines look while you practice with rewards versus how they give the impression of being when you do not.

Z: Yeah. And I believe that is so vital as a result of typically when individuals are coaching with shock, they assume the canine is being good and they aren’t capable of learn the canine’s physique language that reveals that they don’t seem to be blissful in any respect in that blissful expectant look on a canine’s face. There was even a bit of analysis that seemed on the look on the canine’s face after they’re participating in optimistic reinforcement coaching. And it is simply stunning, I believe. 

J: Yeah. 

Z: So I wish to ask you a query about considered one of your different books as a result of we’re specializing in The Tradition Conflict right this moment. However along with The Tradition Conflict, you have written fairly a couple of different books that every one of them are wonderful. We have Battle and Mine and we have got Canine are from Neptune and we have additionally bought Practice Your Canine Like a Professional, which I discussed within the introduction. So I wish to ask you particularly about that as a result of that is aimed toward bizarre canine trainers. Why did you determine to put in writing that exact guide and who do you assume will profit most from it?

J: It is for guardians and it is for guardians who wish to do it your self. And for these folks, there was already plenty of good type of first rules info on the market, however I did not assume that there was something that was tremendous duper granular and regular step-by-step.

And in order that. And likewise that course that you simply talked about from the nice programs, Canine Coaching 101, they’re designed to fill that hole of precisely what to do, put this into slot A and slot B, step-by-step, the way to practice in a contemporary and proof primarily based vogue.

Z: Thanks. And I’ve a query about your writing course of as properly. However I particularly wish to ask you about your writing course of for Tradition Conflict since you’ve written all of those books, and Oh Behave is one other one as properly. However while you have been writing Tradition Conflict, if we take into consideration the tone of the guide, did all of it come out very simply or did you need to sit and plan it quite a bit? I do know it was a very long time in the past, however what do you bear in mind in regards to the course of of really writing it?

J: I do not forget that I used to be very indignant, that I used to be actually very uninterested in form of the continuing narrative about canines desirous to please us being promulgated by individuals who have been, in my view, harming canines. Egregiously harming canines. And I could not, I could not stand it anymore. And so I type of vomited it out in a single summer season. My course of was not superb or skilled. It simply type of out it got here.

Now, over time, I, , there’s been a few rewrites to attempt to, , maintain it updated as a result of my philosophy did change a little bit bit, and in addition to attempt to modulate that tone a little bit bit, as a result of I do know that it may be fairly often off placing.

Z: I do not know that it is off placing. I would not say that. However I believe it depends upon who some folks. And I am positive it felt prefer it was wanted on the time.

And there is a writing query that we regularly ask as a result of we interface with plenty of totally different writers, Kristi and I. We now have a writing group, and we additionally speak to plenty of totally different authors, and we all the time ask them for a writing tip. 

J: I am unable to bear in mind, a well-known writer, perhaps it was Hemingway. Any individual stated writing is rewriting.

So do not take what I simply described once I wrote The Tradition Conflict. Do not do this, , for positive. Get out a draft. So the primary draft goes to be garbage, however then return and revise, revise, present it to someone, , after which revise it some extra after which learn it after which repair it after which be ready to do a number of a number of drafts to get the place you wish to go.

Ok: I did wish to, simply because it occurred to me it is like a literary competition. That is primarily a literary competition. And I believe speaking about writing is so vital as a result of writing is a very vital approach that canine trainers work together with potential audiences. And I used to be questioning, like, are you simply, like, a talented phrase crafter or did you may have lessons on writing or how? Since you’re a terrific writer. You are a really readable writer.

J: Thanks. Yeah, properly, I recognize that very a lot, however I, I do not. I do not contemplate myself in that echelon. I imply, there are folks in that echelon. I’m type of, I am a compulsive rewriter. So I’ve, over time, turn into very a lot about honing issues down and getting issues tighter. So I do advise folks to spend a great deal of their power getting in there and really ruthlessly modifying for size, modifying for tightness, modifying for readability, getting suggestions after which modifying some extra.

Ok: And did you may have lessons on, like, did you’re taking artistic writing or something like that? 

J: No, no, I did not. I, , I may need. I imply, if I stay lengthy sufficient and retire, I would do one thing like that. I believe these are in all probability nice enjoyable. I didn’t. 

I believe one factor that may have helped is I learn quite a bit and I believe studying helps quite a bit. Simply form of passively with the proper, , means to put in writing, perhaps.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And I believe additionally it helps with understanding, like after we’re speaking about speaking with bizarre folks about canine coaching. I believe having all that, having accomplished all of that studying lets you clarify issues higher.

And I completely will put you in that echelon of writers, by the way in which. I believe you are an exquisite author. In order that’s why we’re so thrilled to have you ever, to have you ever right here.

And I wished to ask. You stated considered one of your favourite issues that has modified. And we talked about additionally how there are extra folks utilizing optimistic reinforcement. And also you stated there are such a lot of folks doing this. And clearly The Tradition Conflict as a guide has been a type of issues that is been instrumental in inflicting change. And I discuss with all of the individuals who inform me that it is modified how they method coaching canines.

However we’re a part of a wider tradition as properly. So what different issues do you assume have helped to alter the tradition in direction of extra folks utilizing reward primarily based coaching strategies?

J: That is a terrific query. I do assume issues just like the MeToo motion, issues like social media, which is, in fact there are enormous issues with social media, however the means for folks to form of work together and get their very own concepts on the market.

And it simply, I imply, society is totally different now. There’s much less tolerance of violence, there’s much less tolerance of oppression of teams. There’s additionally, I believe, much less of a premium, what I’d name speciesism, that we…

There’s higher respect, I believe, than ever earlier than for being, for not being human. And I believe all that’s serving to the trigger.

Z: Yeah, I believe undoubtedly that may be a change that. Do you assume it is also to do with folks being extra prone to see canines as a part of their household?

J: Oh, definitely, yeah. And I believe typically that was paid lip service beforehand, but it surely was so ingrained within the tradition that what you probably did to your member of the family was, , scare the crap out of them or , or put a strangulation system round their neck.

Now I believe we’re. We’re strolling the stroll a little bit bit extra with the member of the family factor.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And we have seen modifications in how folks deal with youngsters, too. So do you assume to some extent that type of rubs off on how folks work together with canines as properly?

J: I believe that is a terrific level. Sure. I believe it was, I imply, , earlier generations the place youngsters, there was a higher tolerance for corporal punishment, higher tolerance for scaring the hell out of youngsters.

I believe that’s not the case, and I do not assume it is any shameful. I do know there’s nonetheless pockets of people that pour scorn on the thought of, , folks having fur infants and so forth and, , pondering of canines as their children. However I believe that is a wonderful improvement. I believe that is completely legitimate.

This partial transcript has been flippantly edited for content material and elegance.

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